Season 2 Wrap-Up: Best of 2024 and What's Next

Welcome back to another BDO Legal Tech Talk podcast. This is a very special episode because Jared, we don't actually have a guest today. And I think that that is definitely what makes us special. It's unusual, but this is going to be a recap of the best guests, the shows that we've had throughout twenty twenty four. And so this ends, Jared, if you can believe it, season two. That means we've been doing this for two years.

Amazing, Daniel. I'm so excited.

And first of all, we're the guests. Right? We are the guests.

That's right. That's right. Yeah. But what a year. Right? I mean, this was so fun.

I think when we started this a couple years ago, we didn't think it would be like this today. Right? And even at the beginning of the year, we weren't even calling it season two. I think we invented season two somewhere in the middle.

And so it's really exciting to be wrapping it up right now.

I mean, you think about it, Jared. We've had about forty eight episodes, which is roughly about, I wanna call it probably about fifty to sixty hours worth of talking to some of the biggest influencers and some of the brightest minds in legal technology.

And the impact that they have made on this space has just been so great, and we get to help tell those stories.

And I don't know about you, I think you feel the same way as me, Jared, on this one, that being able to have that kind of responsibility to help get people's stories out there and share with all of our listeners, I mean, that's pretty powerful.

Yeah. I mean, you hit the nail on the head for me. What I'm most excited about is the access we get to people and, really, the way that they open up when they come on the podcast. And we've always said that we highlight the human element of what we do, and I think it really shine through this year. Right? I mean, we really got to hear personal stories of people of how they got to make a difference, other people that made differences in their lives.

And, you know, I like to think that we're making differences in the lives of our listeners as well.

I think you're right. And that brings us to alright. So what exactly is our agenda? You said it best, Jared.

We are the guests. And so we're really gonna do three things in this episode for all of you. The first one is that we are going to recap the best episodes of twenty twenty four. We're gonna share about what we loved about them.

We're going to reflect on some of the lessons that we learned. And how do we know which ones were the best? It's actually, interestingly enough, because we are so data driven. We know exactly which one of these episodes you as the listeners love the most.

And what's so interesting was, Jared, when we saw these numbers, the first thing I thought of was, hey. Wait a second. Those are some of my favorite also.

I felt the same way. And I think, you know, it's probably not a surprise now that I think about it. Right? I mean, if we were really engaged with a guest and they were talking about really interesting things, I mean, only you know, it's only natural that our listeners would feel the same way.

But, Daniel, I was hoping we could pause for a minute and just, you know, maybe get into a little inside baseball for a second and talk about the entire team and what it takes to put on this podcast because we always talk about it, I think, before we start the recording with our guests, but it really does take a village to put this podcast on. It's not just the two of us. You know? We have a whole team behind us.

And, Daniel, how much time would you say you put in individually to each episode?

That's a great question. And first of all, you're a hundred percent right. This takes a village. For all of those people who wanna, you know, do podcasts and they think it's a great idea, make sure you have a really, really solid team.

So the work that I do personally is that, you know, I put in hours doing some research on my own about understanding our guests. We have our team that performs research for us as well. But, you know, what does that mean when we do research? Well, it goes beyond just looking at somebody's online profile.

If you're an avid listener of this podcast, you know, Jared and myself, we will quote articles that they have said, even webinars or podcasts that they have been in. And so it takes a lot of time, and it takes a lot of time to be able to perform that research. So, you know, I can spend hours just talking about one guest, and one of those happens to be one of the ones we're we're gonna reflect on today. Jared, what about you?

I mean, what are you doing to prepare besides, you know, going through, you know, profiles and blog posts and all that other stuff?

Yeah. I mean, that's a lot of it. Right? It's really trying to understand our guests' perspectives or, you know, the persona that they put out publicly and the opinions that they have so we can ask intelligent questions, and we can dig in a layer deeper.

And I think, if anything, hopefully, that's come across to the listeners that that's where we get to with people and their stories. Right? We really try to, you know, get deeper than surface level, really try to understand what drives and motivates people and how they're making a difference in this world. And one of the themes that we always talk about is education.

Right? Both always trying to learn and improve ourselves, and we feel like, you know, that's a message that we can spread to everybody. And I think, hopefully, that's the general theme that comes across.

Yeah. And, you know, one of the interesting things is that we're always trying to, as I said before, you know, we're trying to get somebody else's story out. But when you do the research and you are able to ask the right questions to help get that story out there, and it evokes emotions as part of that story. We heard a lot of emotions in both, you know, both seasons, season one and season two. And I think that says a lot about us as professionals and other professionals in the legal industry is that you're essentially performing an investigation.

Right? You're digging in, and that's what we do as part of our day job is perform an investigation. And part of the data that we get is, how does that data tell a story? Does that sound right to you, Jared?

Yeah. It really does. And, you know, it's really interesting to me always. You know? I always go on to every show with my show notes, and I have a big pad of paper that I take notes on.

And, you know, we typically get, what, five minutes in before we completely throw out the plan and start going in different directions. Right? And so I'm not trying to discount the preparation at all because it is so critical. And I really thank our podcast team for helping us put it all together because it gives us the confidence to start, you know, going in different directions and reacting to things that our guests say and to really hopefully drive it into some new ways and spark ideas that maybe we haven't thought of before.

Our guests haven't really articulated before, and they're coming up with something new on the fly, which to me is what we're after.

That's right. And it's not just the, you know, the associates and the managers who are helping us. It's also the marketing team that is helping us as well. And, really, you know, we could record the best episodes in the world, but if it's not out there in the world, then nobody's ever gonna hear it.

And so I think that's, you know, kudos to them. There's a great quote, Jared, by, Benjamin Franklin who said, by failing to prepare, you're preparing to fail. And but your point about preparation is right on. You can always be agile, and you can always flex, but you can't do that unless you have the right amount of preparation on your side.

So That's right.

Yeah. And, you know, I think it's okay to probably officially announce now that we are the number one podcast at BDO. We're finishing season two here as the most listened to show that our company is putting out, and so I am unbelievably proud about that and, you know, the effort that, you know, yourself, myself, and the entire team has put in to get us there.

I think it's fantastic. So let's talk about what is going on with our season two. What were the biggest highlights? Jared, I wanna ask you first. What was the number one episode that the data has showed us that you're gonna share with our listeners today?

Well, this is one of those instances, Daniel, where the data and my own personal feelings really lined up. You know? I think if we were gonna look at what the theme for season two ended up being after the fact, it was certainly artificial intelligence. Right?

I can't think of a single episode we did this year where it didn't come up in some form or fashion, and we didn't get some great insights from our guests about how they're utilizing artificial intelligence or, you know, even just pontificating how artificial intelligence is gonna change the legal profession in the future. And so right at the top of the list, this was an early episode this year. I believe we recorded it in February. That was with Zviad Gurali from WilmerHale.

Zee, to those who know him. I actually go back with Zee for about twenty years, and I think we talked about that a little bit in the episode. So I've known him a while. We've been in this industry a while.

We've seen all kinds of changes over the years in technology, and, you know, he brought a perspective that, you know, one, really allowed us to geek out. You know, we have a lot of attorneys on the podcast as you know, and I'm not an attorney, as you also know. I identify as a data scientist. So the episodes where we can get real geeky with somebody and really get into, you know, how things are changing on a mechanical level, just really excites me.

Was there anything in particular, Jared, that z said during the podcast that you were like, yeah. You know what? That is right on, and this is maybe where the industry is going or maybe something along the lines of, yes.

Everyone who's listening is gonna be nodding their head simultaneously.

Yeah. Well, one of the quotes that jumps out at me in this you know, I love that it was so early in the year for us too. You know, the year of AI, which I think had been that for everybody. You know, right off the bat, Z comes out with, AI is not replacing lawyering or lawyers.

AI is gonna replace lawyering and lawyers who do not use AI. And that to me is just it's fantastic. It really just sums everything up because, you know, there is still a lot of fear out there about AI and what the future may hold. But Zee just summed it up.

Right? You gotta embrace new technology. You gotta embrace change. And it's gonna be for the betterment of everybody individually as well as us collectively in the industry.

You know what's funny is that I have been quoting z all year long. That quote right there, I have been telling people, listen to the podcast, listen to z. That's the quote. And I think that you're right.

As we have seen in multiple guests have come on the show and they've talked about AI and generative AI is that those that don't understand how to be able to utilize the tool, that's where there's gonna be jeopardy. It's not that anybody's taking away anybody's job. It's how to be able to leverage the technology appropriately, and I think z I think you're right on. Z really dove deep into that.

Yeah. And I you know, anybody who can get time with z and can dive into this stuff, he's got such a unique perspective having been in the industry for so long, having, you know, been deep in technical stuff but also understanding the law. I mean, it's just it's always a fantastic conversation, and so I really enjoyed having him on.

So that was, you said, in the beginning of the year. So alright. It's my turn. I wanna talk about an episode that I thought really resonated.

What's your top draft pick, Daniel? Let's see here.

Alright. So the topic that I wanna talk about was actually you know, we've recorded this at the beginning of the year as well, interestingly enough.

This was Nicole Tineo. Now Nicole, for those that know, she is over at Quinn Emanuel, large law firm, international presence.

And what I loved about the episode with Nicole the most, and for those that don't recall this, I'll I'll, give a quick highlight here, is that she was talking about the importance of education.

She does a lot of educating of a lot of the legal professionals, a lot of the lawyers about eDiscovery. But one of the things that I thought was most impactful was talking about diversity and inclusion in the legal industry and how it's changed. And, look, I've got a soft spot for that, as you know, Jerry. Right? And you do as well. And I think that having Nicole on the show to really talk about the significant changes that she has witnessed over the years, you know, we've seen that as well, in diversity and inclusion, and she also talked a lot about, mental health awareness in the legal profession.

Jared, if you remember, in season one, you know, we had Christine from the Gunster Law Firm on. She talked a lot about, mental health awareness.

Also, justice Tanya R. Kennedy, she also talked a lot about this. And so there's been a theme, I think, also, while it's been the year of AI for sure, there's also been this theme as well of making sure that we have folks on the show that talk about, and you said this upfront, the human element and legal technology. And look, we are generalizing.

We, in this legal profession, we are type a personalities. We can't ever forget that we are human beings. And Nicole really zeroed in on that. And my favorite quote from that episode was, she said, check your ego out the door, show up for other people, be a great human, and treat other people the same way. And I was just like, I'm done.

I think that's my favorite quote of the entire year. I mean, I've I've been repeating that one nonstop since I think we had her on in maybe February.

And That's right. Nicole's one of my favorite people in the industry, and I have not even known her that long. I think I'd maybe known her eighteen months, but she really brings it. And the thing that impressed me the most about her, it's not just talk.

Right? She really puts her money where her mouth is. And I remember our discussion of, you know, she's out there, she's hiring vendors. You know, this whole industry is a pressure cooker.

Everybody's under tremendous stress all the time, and she's out there hiring vendors and really asking questions about, you know, the mental health of the people at the vendors performing the work. She doesn't wanna be a person who's adding on to the stress of other people and, you know, making unreasonable demands. She wants to understand that the health of the team, making sure that the vendors that are working with her are part of her team, and she really looks to take care of people. And that's what I appreciate the most.

Do you remember, Jared, that she said that in her mind, one of the ways that she can prevent burnout was, she sends out these biweekly wellness emails with tips on meditation and sending boundaries to support mental health. And I just thought that was just absolutely amazing. How many legal professionals do you hear talking about that on the daily?

Yeah. Not that many. And that's what makes her so unique and so special. And, you know, culture is one of those things that you have to work on.

You it's like a relationship. You have to spend time on it. You have to really focus on it. It just doesn't happen on its own.

And the fact that she is really focused on these things and involving other people and sending reminders like that to people, it really just embeds it into the daily culture of, you know, Quinn Emanuel, and I imagine that's a fantastic place to work because of that.

Yeah. And you know, Jared, that one of the things that I think I've taken away the most from Nicole is taking her messaging and applying that here at BDO. When we have our forensic technology all hands calls, we always talk about gratitude. And I lean heavily on that influence that Nicole had on us during that episode. So it's not surprising whatsoever that that was of all the episodes that we did, and we did about, what, two dozen episodes in season two, that was one of the top listened to episodes. So there was mine.

What's your next one, Jared?

The next one, I've got a good one, another great human being. And, you know, I think that's a theme here, right? Because again, we're not just looking for technical experts. We're not just looking for who knows the law the best, or, you know, who's had the most success on cases.

We're looking for people that are really making differences on the human side here. So my next favorite episode is innovation with Colin Levy. And this was another one that was early in the year. And if anyone doesn't know Colin, I suggest they follow him on LinkedIn and other social media because he's got a big following.

He talks about the human side all the time. He really shares personal details of his own mental health struggles of his own family, and it's really insightful. You know? I love reading what he puts out there, but then he's also a technical expert.

Right? You know? If anyone hasn't picked up his book on the legal tech ecosystem, they absolutely should because it's, you know, lots of great information there explained in a very clear and concise manner. And it was a great episode.

You know, we had a really good conversation with him, both on those more technical aspects, but also on the human side, like we keep saying, which is very important to us. And I just really enjoyed having him on.

What was one of the things when he talked about the legal tech ecosystem, and he talked about collaboration? Do you recall one of the things that he had said that was really important about why he thinks it's so important to make sure that everybody's collaborating?

Yeah. Well, I do have a quote here from him. He said, collaboration is essential in bridging the gap between the legal and tech worlds. It involves building relationships, learning from others, and working together towards shared goals. This collaboration helps integrate legal tech tools into business and processes, enhancing value and efficiency.

And, again, I think it's so concise. It's so clear. I mean, you totally understand his perspective just in a couple sentences right there.

You know, it's interesting. We talked about this with one of our other guests as well, and there was this piece that I put out actually, a number of years ago called Collaboration's Not a Curse Word. And so when Colin was on the show, I was reminded of, because this was back a number of years ago when I wrote it, but it still holds true. And the ability to be able to collaborate does a lot of very meaningful things.

And I think Colin really touched on it when he was talking about how everybody needs to learn from one another, talk to one another, communicate with one another. In fact, he had said that problem identification is the key first step to doing anything with regards to technology, and that's right on. We have an obligation. It's not just as lawyer.

It gets passed down to all legal professionals working on a case. There's a obligation that we work together to do what the rules say, which is to have a just and speedy resolution to matter, And the failure to collaborate is really just makes a prolonged, terse matter. And some of the things we heard throughout all of season two, Jared, was that the words that we use actually really do matter.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think collaboration was another takeaway just from the season as a total. You know? I think whether we're talking about litigation support or attorneys or technologists, you know, they all have to work together. We all have to work together, and there's always room for improvement and collaboration.

You know, it really makes it all shine.

So Colin was up there. We've got, z. We've got Nicole. We've got Colin.

Alright. The next one's yours, Daniel. And I know I have an idea where you're going with this, and I think it's a favorite of yours. It's something you've wanted to do for a long time.

It would be for me, it would be judge Paul Grimm.

I will tell you that, as as I probably noted on the show, we had so we had judge Grimm not on one not one episode, but we had judge Grimm on two episodes because there's so much great information that judge Grimm had to share with us that we felt like we'd be doing an injustice to not have him on for a second. Now listen. You know I've been doing these continuing legal education courses since at least two thousand seven. And since two thousand and ten, when judge Grimm put out this decision, it was called the Victor Stanley decision. There was there was not one but two Victor Stanley decisions.

And I have had judge Grimm's face on nearly every single CLE that I've ever given, no matter the topic, to talk about the dangers of spoliation and the dangers of not collaborating and the dangers of not communicating any discovery when judge Grimm literally said that this person was gonna go to jail. And so my big joke was, do not pass go. Do not collect two hundred dollars. Like, that's it.

Like, you're going straight to jail. And so judge Grimm has always been to me with his very, very academic treatise like case law opinions, has always been at the forefront, similar to how we had Judge Peck on the show in season one, has always been this leader, this beacon, this light in eDiscovery. And so I've always admired that, and it has always been my desire, personally, professionally, to have this opportunity to be on the program. And, Jared, I don't think that he let me down personally whatsoever.

Well, I don't think he let anyone down. He was our most listened to episode by runtime. Right?

Yeah. I mean, just hands down. Absolutely. So it's clear that our listeners love listening to judge Grimm as much as we loved having judge Grimm here on the show twice and telling his story.

One of the things that I wanna talk about with judge Grimm that I thought was really interesting was is that he said that he's always felt that being a judge and having the opportunity to try to do your very best with every case to get the right outcome when you have limited resources and limited time to do it was the highest gift of public service that you could give. That's amazing. Mic drop right there. Right?

It is a mic drop. Right? It is a mic drop. And I remember vividly him saying that on the program, and I thought that he was able to go through a lot of the mechanistic, you know, history of eDiscovery from a technology perspective.

Seeing it through his lens, I thought was a gift to our listeners. If you recall, he also talked about collaboration.

He said that the benefit of collaboration is that everyone benefits from it. When it's done, you give up none of the important things, but what you do is create an atmosphere where our process, the cases, and the procedures are better and they're fair. Jared, you know, if you could just take all that goodness and just, you know, spread it to absolutely every legal professional, I mean, we might see cleaner court dockets. I don't know.

I love it. I love his attitude. I love what he brings to the table. It was just so much fun talking to him.

And we've had what, three judges on the podcast now. You you mentioned judge Peck. We've also had justice Tanya Kennedy, which was a brilliant conversation. And I love that we're bringing that perspective.

Right? We're not just talking to legal service professionals. We're not just talking to lawyers, to technologists. But having the judge's perspective has just been so invaluable for me to hear it because I haven't had that many conversations with judges myself outside of a courtroom.

That's where mine have been also. And for better or for worse, when I practice.

So that's actually a good teaser to talk about season three. And so we were renewed at Jared by BDO, and so we yes. Yes. Breaking news. And so season three is going to be bringing us even more legal professionals. Jared, why don't you share with us, how do we end up choosing the folks that come on to the program? What is the criteria by which you and I are having these, you know, these conversations about what guests to bring on the show and what they can bring, most importantly, to all of our listeners?

That's a great question, and I think it's one that, you know, people don't realize how much consideration goes into it. Right? Because we want to have a certain brand. We wanna have a certain message. You know, we keep saying it. We focus on the human elements here.

And so there's a whole process that goes into, you know, identifying people that we think are gonna bring a unique perspective to the show that are gonna be able to go, again, more than surface deep on some of these topics and give us true insights that you may not hear elsewhere. And so, you know, we've had a lot of debates internally, you know, amongst our team, our marketing team, others at BDO about, you know, who might be a good guest. But, ultimately, you know, I, I do feel like we channel our listeners in making these decisions. And we really think about, you know, the person who's commuting into the office or the person who's running outside, you know, listening on headphones or somebody who's just trying to escape for a little bit and learn something new. And we really channel those people and what they might wanna hear in these guests. And then we try to conjure a guest that's going to fit a need for them.

Yeah. And that's really important. And I think that even when the topics may be a little bit dicey as we've had on some of the shows, ultimately, you're right. We have definitely found, not just internally, but also out in the social media world, that there are definitely a core group of listeners. And the traffic that you have seen and the traffic that I have seen on our respective social media platforms and publicizing this, it is clear that what you said is right on, that human element is something that has really resonated the most. And I think that's one of the things that has really attracted a following to the Legal Tech Talk podcast is being able to do that moving forward.

Well, let's dive into that for a little bit, Daniel. You know, let's talk about how we've built the audience. And, you know, I imagine that first episode we released two years ago, you know, it was like my mom, maybe your wife listened to it, right.

Like two or three or four people maybe, but we now have, you know, pretty good listenership on each episode that we release. And it seems like real excitement every time we release a new episode. So let's talk about a little bit about how we've built this audience and some of the things that we've done.

Yeah. One of the things that and you're right. One of the things that's been great to see is that I think when we've had our first episode, which was, a friend of mine, Meredith Williams' range, Meredith and I go back to when she was a first year associate at her law firm, and I was a one year, so to speak, at the company I was with. I had just finished the practice of law, went over to the software company. And so we've literally been following one another, and it literally started with, oh, maybe it's a fad. One of the things, like everything else in life, it really requires a ton of discipline, and it requires consistency.

Without discipline, without consistency, nothing at all in life will ever be successful. Period. Hard stop. And you and I, Jared, committed with our teams internally to really drive something that was gonna be meaningful and was gonna make a difference.

And once we started socializing it on our respective social media platforms and people started identifying with, oh, this is actually not. Like, now they're on four. Now they're on five. Now they're on twelve.

Now they're on fifteen. And now, well, look at this. They're doing a second year. We have gone from just a few likes to several several likes to thousands of impressions.

And we have said, again, just to dial back to the very beginning, we've seen the data. And the data shows that we have and I'm very, very grateful for this. I know you are as well. Grateful for the fact that we have just been authentic in our approach with our guests. We've been authentic with our audience. I know that's an overly used word, but I think that that is by far when you are just you and you are not being some sort of facade, and you just come through as just being genuine and real and raw, I think that's where you start attracting other people that are like, oh, these are human beings having human conversations.

And I think that the hard work that goes into this from our team and from us, I think that it ultimately, it really shows. And I think that's the most important thing that I think I've seen in building out the brand. What about you? That's awesome. That's very well said.

You know, I echo all of the statements you just made. And, you know, I wanna tease a little bit about, you know, some of the changes to season three coming and how we're gonna continue to build this audience. You know, for me, it's anytime we can, you know, get a comment from a listener or somebody drops us an email about an episode and we're able to incorporate that into the next episode or and how we do things, to me, it's so rewarding. You know?

I want more of that. I wanna get really greedy next year and really make sure that we're engaging with the audience, we're getting that feedback, and we're giving the people what they want. Right? And, you know, I think we have some new ways to do that.

I don't know if you wanna tease, you know, the major change for next year.

Well, I'd be happy to, Jared. And I think that, now whether or not everyone wants to see it, and I use that word intentionally or not, We are coming to video, next year, and that's probably the most exciting thing. So we are expanding our our platform outside of just the major podcast platforms into video. And so and we're gonna bring that to our guests as well. And, and all listeners can, you know, hop on to the video streaming platform that we land with to be able to see us. And I think that some of the most successful podcasts out there are streaming their videos now, their recordings.

And I could tell you personally, I love that. I love watching that, whether I'm on the treadmill running and I'm watching it or just, you know, it got some downtime. So I'm personally really excited about this. Jared, you said something that I think was great and that you wanna be a little bit greedy with this, right, with really bringing on more.

And, you know, if it's alright, Jared, I wanna ask a favor of all of our listeners. Right? Let's do it. Alright.

Well, listen. The favor I have is if you like listening to the BDOlegal Tech Talk podcast, Darren and I want you to like it. We want you to subscribe.

We want you to comment on the applicable platforms in which we are there and share this with others as well. Because the reality is that this show only gets better when we have more likes, when we have more subscribes, and we got more feedback, because the higher we rank, the better the guests are that come on to the program. And so that requires a little bit of work as a community, of a Legal Tech Talk podcast community, to help us in bringing more thoughtful, inspirational folks onto our program.

I love the way you frame that. We are a community. Right? The listeners, even though we're not talking to you every day, you know, we'd love to hear from you.

You are part of this. You're building something with us. We wanna hear from you. You know, we're going to video soon.

If if you don't like my shirt, you know, tell me about it. I think you're gonna find out soon that Daniel only wears one color shirt. So he may or may not like it. I think it's great.

We do wanna hear from from everybody and, you know, our listeners should feel real ownership of this podcast.

I've also kind of shifted my listening patterns to the, you know, the podcast that I subscribe to where I'm watching more video as well now too. And I think there's a whole other element there, you know, as we talk about, you know, the human element again and everything that we do. You know, there's so much more communication as you see, you know, the excitement on our guest's face and their hand gestures and, you know, the way that we play off each other. I don't know that everybody knows, but every recording we've ever done is on video. We just only release the audio of it, but we need those visual cues to help us make this successful. So I'm super excited about it.

Jared, I loved how we've been able to, throughout this episode, give the inside baseball of what it takes and, you know, talking about that community. It really does take a village. It takes our internal folks, as we talked about. It takes our listeners, which we've talked about. I think that's terrific. Any parting words as we close out twenty twenty four, we close out season two. Anything else that you wanted to add, Jared?

I'm just filled with gratitude, Daniel. You know, thanks to you and thanks to the podcast team. Most of all, thanks to our audience. You know, it's I never thought I'd be doing something like this. This has been completely new to me, and I'm absolutely loving the experience. And it wouldn't be happening, you know, without all of you. So thank you.

Well, I agree. It's been an incredible year, and thank you as well to all of our listeners and to everyone on the team. And we're looking forward to twenty twenty five.