The Mind-Budget Connection in E-Discovery

I am a lawyer. I'm a mom. I live in Texas. We have a whole bunch of kids and lots of chickens and three dogs.

And I work for a law firm called Gunster, which is Florida based, and my specialty is eDiscovery and litigation strategy.

And we've got a fantastic group. Many of whom have been together for a number of years, some new faces to our group. But we really love working together, and we love eDiscovery strategy.

And that's what I do.

I guess so, yes, that was not necessarily something that I set out to become, but the eDiscovery community is smaller than you would think, and it is precious, and it is full of people who take a lot of pride in their work, and especially COVID, it became really clear to me that we had a very stark problem and that it was being fueled by I mean, by us. Right? Like, we were doing this to ourselves in a lot of ways. And the community of e Discovery is made up of kind of this, you know, three legged stool of clients and vendors and law firms.

And like some of the practices and patterns that we had gotten ourselves into were leading to poor mental health outcomes for eDiscovery providers. And that's It's bad. It's bad for us right now. And so I started thinking about how do we get ourselves out of this box. Employers can send scented candles and yoga videos to their employees all they want, and that's not really helping And so I started thinking about some systemic ways in which we could make changes. And then there was kind of like a little group of us that wanted to do that. And then all of a sudden, we had like a mental health initiative.

And so, yeah, I guess I am a mental health advocate, but That's definitely not what I would have ever predicted at the beginning of my career, probably not even a couple years ago. But here we are. When you started this, and you said there's a problem that I need to solve for, a lot of people think about these things, but not a lot of people execute on these types of things. Right?

So where was the move for you, Christine? Where you said, this is a problem, and I love my community. Right? So I love my community.

I love who I work with. I love who I work for. I love the people in the community.

This can't continue this way. What was that point for you where you said, I need to step outside of my space, and I need to tell the world there's something that right, we need to be able to fix it. Well, I think it was a combination of things. One is that I'm now kind of at a level of seniority where for certain aspects of the job I'm in charge?

And it's on me and so if my team is experiencing work related burnout. That's something that I have to address head on. And if I am, you know, helping a client enter into a contract that is automatically gonna drive over work.

Because of the way it's structured, you know, that I'm part of the problem.

And I started to see that real clearly and then also there was a moment in time where we had some very, very negative outcomes for, you know, people we cared about. I've had friends who've had heart attacks. I've had friends who end up, you know, in the with panic attacks.

You know, we've lost folks in our community who have passed away. And, like, that's not just being stressed out. That's not grind culture.

That's where stress has jumped the line and it is now a physical manifestation, and it's hurting people both from a mental health perspective and but also a physical health perspective. And you cannot just sit there and watch that and think like, okay. Well, this is fine.

So, you know, it was very clear that we had to do something, and I looked around at what was being offered.

And, you know, you have lots of companies with very good intentions, right, who are trying to promote mindfulness, or offering flex work arrangements. All of those things are good, but it doesn't really matter if the flex work arrangement just allows people to work twenty hours a day in a different arrangement, so there's something had to break.

I think it is.

A couple years ago, I was working for a firm and I had to do a bio for, like, you know, some promotional magazine or something like that. And I wrote in the bio like a joke about my therapist, and my boss Line edited that out, and I think it was you know, out of fear. And it makes sense and I understand and it wasn't wrong. It was just perhaps a tad too personal for what they were going for.

But, you know, if we don't talk about it, right, if y'all don't know that I have a great therapist.

Then, you know, people I think are nervous to talk about theirs.

I think it is very hard for us to talk about and accept kind of where people view eDiscovery professionals in the tier of who has power and who doesn't. Lots of people think that eDiscovery is like some secondary practice area. You know, eDiscovery jobs pay less. You know, the hours are worse. You know, it's kind of like, well, if you can't get a regular job, you could get an eDiscovery job. And all of that really kind of like builds up and it weighs on people.

And so I think it makes it even harder for people to admit than that there is an issue.

You know, the language that we use, Christine, in the Legal profession, is interesting. I think it helps actually, it hurts in how we talk about things. For instance, we don't call the attorney on the other side of the matter opposing counsel as much as we call them our adversary.

And when I think about that, I also think about something you said in an article, eDiscovery, pros speak out about stress, burnout. And you said if we're continually putting people into an environment that does have a chance of success in terms of balancing workloads appropriately or managing stress, then laying it at the employee's feet isn't going to be successful. And I'm curious, how can we change some of the language that we're using? How could we change some of how we are approaching employees how can we put people in a better position to empower them to be more successful in lifting that up so that we have this space of collaboration, even with our opposing counsel.

I think language does matter. And we have to be very intentional about how we speak and regard each other. You know, the first place we need to attack is more at a structural systemic level. And we need to be looking at the contracts that we are entering into.

And whether those contracts have a chance of success in terms of staffing.

So, for example, if we are allowing, say, a vendor to enter into a flat fee contract, where the scope is never gonna work with that. Well, then that vendor, the only way that they have to make money is to toggle the staffing. Right to reduce the number of people who are working on a matter. And we have very proud people in the eDiscovery community. And if you ask two people to carry the weight of ten, they're going to try.

But there's no world in which that that's gonna work. And so these kind of like magical contracts you know, that everybody enters into to think, well, we'll get the business and we'll work it out on the back end. Like, that doesn't actually work for the human beings who are tasked with doing the job until that magic happens. And it may never happen.

And so, from my perspective, how do we better support employees, is setting them up for success, you know, in our agreements, in the way that we structure projects, and the way the contracts that we enter into. And so, that means that everybody has to be really realistic about the fact that we are all here to make reasonable dollars for reasonable work And so if you have a project that's going to require ten people, you know, we have to stop allowing people to sweep in and say, well, I'll do that for free. In fact, I'll do it for free and I'll come to your house on Sunday and I'll fold your clothes for you. That doesn't make any sense, like, no, let's actually talk about how many people, how many human beings are required to do this job, then let's figure out how much that costs and that's the contract that we should enter into.

But unfortunately, in the eDiscovery industry, we've kind of like outsmarted ourselves. We've said everything's technology. Everything's, you know, super fast. Right? And, like, our logos and our graphics imply that everything is done instantly with the push of a button.

But if you've worked in the industry, you know that's not true. Right? It's a ton of people who are leveraging amazing technology but there's still the people there, and it's a long grueling day. And so we have to acknowledge that in the way that we set up our project the way that we set up our cases and our contracts?

I've been on all sides of this. Yeah. I've been in a contract, you know, that is not set up for success.

I have been asked to, you know, help form those contracts.

And the three parts of the community all have to get together and be on the same page on this. Clients, vendors, and law firms. Because I can advocate for you know, this type of approach all day long. And I can get a client on board with it. But then if a vendor sweeps in out of nowhere and says, well, we'll do that for five cents, That's very difficult for clients to resist taking that deal unless they are armed with the information.

That says whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not real. You know, like, let's back up and help your purchasing department understand what is actually gonna be required. Let's go up your chain and talk about how you are doing budgeting so that the client is not immediately incentivized to just take the cheapest deal.

And are you using the health and wellness of employees in that conversation? And if so, is the receptiveness to that?

Well, so you know, back to kind of this little group that we've got that is all of a sudden, you know, talking about mental health. So we called it the mind budget connection, and it is led by clients. And that is so important. Right?

Yeah, and I've really enjoyed the types of conversations and I've been able to meet people as part of this initiative that I don't think I ever would have met and you know, I had a great conversation with a guy who's head of sales at a big vendor.

And, you know, they're a great shop. They do really good work. And I said to him, I said, how do you make sure that you are not incentivizing your sales guys to take bad money?

Right? We've all seen the bad contract. You know?

How do you make sure that your sales guys are sufficiently, you know, compensated to walk away from that or to encourage a restructure.

Oh, we're hiring.

You know, listen, people figure out a way to be successful and they try to replicate it.

And so it's very hard to say to folks who have been successful in a certain model over time, you need to break that, you need to change.

But if this is going to be a sustainable industry that we all have, then we cannot continue to work folks to the bone. And so, you know, there's different levels in our industry of visibility into into contract. Structures. Right? They're the people who are forming the contracts and signing those. Then they're the folks who might have some visibility into it, but they don't have responsibility for it. And the people on the ground doing the work, they probably have no idea how this got priced out.

And so, it's about educating and kind of creating an information structure so that the people at the top forming the contracts have some idea of what is about to happen.

And so if the curmudgeons out there are not interested in having those discussions, if they're not interested in changing their model, if they just wanna grab whatever work is available, like, that's not sustainable.

And those vendors, those law firms that are interested in having a more sustainable conversation, they're gonna outlast.

And eventually, you know, this model where it is a more open and more transparent conversation about human services will be the winner, in the end. I have faith. We use it, we're doing great.

I mean, yes. You know, that's a perpetual question. You know, what are the kids doing these days? But the kids don't wanna work twenty hours a day. I'll tell you that. And, you know, when I graduated law school, the idea was kind of, like, you're lucky to have a job. We have given you the, you know, the distinct pleasure of being able to walk into our building and, you know, if you don't like it, get out.

I don't think anyone thinks that anymore. And so, really, we have to be able to connect with people and offer them a community where they feel fulfilled. Otherwise, they're leaving. And I think that's I mean, we've seen a huge huge, you know, shift in even a discovery industry with people just walking away from jobs saying, like, There's no money in the world that is worth that.

You know, I don't know. This is a weird question. Right? Because in our little community, we should say like, oh, yeah, it makes everything way better. But I don't know that that is true.

That's the pitch everyone says by the way. Right? That's the pitch. Oh, yeah. No. I don't know that this is true.

So my first job was making copies at my dad's Law firm in Denver. And then at some point, I kind of, you know, moved up and was able to be like an assistant. And we would I would write some letters sometimes.

And so, we had a system, right? Where you go, and we had, you know, it was an age of computers. So, we would go into the computer, we'd write the letter. Right? And then I would print two copies.

And the lawyer would sign one copy, and then I had this stamp that said copy. And I would put that you know, in the signature block of the other one. And so then I would put the copy in the file, and then we would fold up nicely the other one and mail it off. And so the mail takes, you know, whatever, two or three days, and then our recipient usually are adversary opposing counsel.

Would, you know, receive it and be blown away by the brilliance of our letter, and then would take the time to compose a letter response back. Right? And then they would do that. And then they had their own, you know, letter writing system, copy, and then it would come back to us. So, we're not going to see a response to this before, like, what a week, maybe longer.

And, you know, that was the pace at which we were expected to move, because you couldn't move faster, right? I can't make the mail go faster.

And so, you know, if you think about now how email and that's a technology that has been adopted by the legal community. You know, do we you know, am I only still responsible for moving at that same pace, and I just have all this out of free time, and I can, you know, go on long walks with a dog in the meantime. Like, no. No one expects that. Everyone just expects that you just have a higher volume of work. And so, you know, while it may be, I processed twenty letters a week in, you know, that world. I now process the equivalent of twenty hours in like my first ten minutes of work.

And so, I don't know that that technology has made things better.

You know, also the email follows follows you around and it's in your phone. It's everywhere.

So when you look at, like, new emerging technologies in the eDiscovery industry, people often talk about how like Tar is going to relieve the need for people to really do document review.

And I'll just I'll believe it when I see it. Because what I see is that you need really smart people in and around system to be making strategic choices, to be making sure that the system is running correctly to answer questions like, hey, is this data set even going to work in a TAR system?

And the demands on people don't go away. What increases though is client, and judicial, and opposing counsel expectations that things will move faster. Right? Because you're using Tar. Make it go faster.

And so I think I worry about, you know, any sort of expectation that the technology is actually going to provide relief to the human beings using it because every example that I have seen over the course of my career It just makes things go faster, and it makes the workload that you have to carry heavier.

But it's hard to be able to balance all of those factors together, which requires, I think, more louder voices from you, to be able to say, Hold on a second, expectations aren't really aligned here.

Because think about it. Think about every eDiscovery disaster you've ever seen. Or been a part. What? No. No way.

You know, things happen in the middle of the night when people are tired. Things happen when you're trying to go too fast, when you're trying to get a production out the door, you know, in two hours even though everybody said, really, we need a twenty four hour buffer. Those are when things go wrong, right, when you're not paying attention to the queries. These little mistakes. It's just very hard for human beings to be accurate at high volumes for that many hours in a row day after day after day.

And we're just not to the point where the computers do this all for us, we really do need human brainpower and strategy behind these decisions.

And so if you are pushing the system too fast, too hard, that's where you're going to have mistakes, and that's where clients suffer.

And in my experience, if I've made a mistake like that and it's solely due to fatigue and it's not a mistake I can learn from, it's gonna have a pretty detrimental effect on my health Absolutely.

It depends on what practice area you're talking about. I really see tremendous opportunity for legal tech to make, for example, family law better. I think, you know, people who can't afford a lawyer and need a divorce currently are absolutely up the creek without a paddle. But I think there's really good opportunities for technology to be able to step in and help those folks.

You know, maybe those corporate guys who do deals all day and seem happy all the time. Like, I think that they probably are seeing some pretty cool benefits from some of the contract generation tools that are out there. You know, I'm a litigator.

That's what I do all day long is all I've ever been.

And so from my perspective here in litigation, I am not that optimistic.

Which is part of one of the reasons I think we as human beings have to band together and say, we are not going down with the ship.

We are going to make changes.

We are going to have some tough conversations about pricing and about budgets and about sneaky guys who jump in and undercut bids for no particular good reason. Like, we gotta start talking about that, and we gotta restructure it And if we can do that, then maybe we can get to a point where some of this awesome technology actually starts to make life better for legal professionals.

But until we can fix the human problem, I don't know the technology that can help us.

I do. One of the components of the Mind Budget Connection is we had a survey last year for folks in the eDiscovery industry.

And part of the survey was a scale, like a burnout scale. To kind of figure out where are you in terms of, you know, potential for burnout. And burnout is actually like Now, it is now recognized by the World Health Organization. It is a clinical term, and it relates to long term inability to manage stressors.

So, it's not just stress and it's not the inability to manage stress. It's that extended period of time where you are experiencing stress and can't reduce it. And it has physical manifestations, It has, you know, consequences for work quality.

And so measuring burnout really critical. So we included a burnout scale in the survey, and lots of people took it.

And, you know, some of the results that came back were really, really staggering.

But the one for me that really stands out is that on, you know, the burnout scale, we have, like, more than two thirds of our professionals at all different levels who are already passed burnout threshold.

We have another twenty percent that are right on the doorstep.

So what that means is we don't have like, a healthy group of people who are trying to save a few who have already gone past the threshold. And like, let's bring those guys back. No. We are all way way past.

I don't anticipate any sort of change in twenty twenty three. I really don't even know what is a reasonable goal for the industry because I don't speak for or control the industry. And I think there's a lot of folks out there who don't like what I have to say. It doesn't fit exactly nicely with budget management or and sometimes it doesn't fit nicely with profit management. So you know, my goal and what we've kind of set forth for the mind budget connection is to, in twenty twenty three, offer to the community a summary of what we have found and also some principles that contracting parties can consider during formation of their agreements, that will hopefully build in more of a structure for human sustainability.

Now, what I just said is incredibly wishy washy. Right? These are like guidelines, that are recommended for consideration and discussion. You know, does that mean that anybody's gonna do anything about it? I don't know. You know, it really is gonna take, I think, clients driving this in a very similar way to how clients have driven the quality and diversity efforts and just starting to make demands that their vendors and their law firms comply.

Well, thank you. That's great to hear.

Well so we We're more more more about your for a human sustainability. Okay. That's a that's a better way to approach it. So we have a little LinkedIn page and we do put up anytime, you know, there's kind of a development or an article or, you know, conference talking about mental health in the industry. So, that is a good place to go. We are working on a website and the rest is to be determined.

So, really, this was the brainchild of Angela Han. Who is a very cool LinkedIn personality.

She does diversity.

She does empowerment. She does all sorts of things related to, you know, kind of examining the legal space and whether we are you know, on the right track.

And then she got together with an editor, Tatcha Gordon Troy, who has been responsible for some very cool books and mythologies in the legal space before.

And you know, they kind of solicited you know, women to submit their their perspectives, their essays?

Absolutely. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.