Amy Ambroson on Litigation Solutions, Client Buy-In and Safe AI Adoption

Thanks for having me.

That is correct. I came right after I graduated from law school. So I have spent my entire career at UnitedLex.

so i think when i first started it was all about taking kind of one bite at the apple you search terms reign supreme and we were throwing as many people as we could, to look at everything and through it as quickly as possible because you had to review everything before you could kind of strategize and prepare for it now i feel like we're in a space with all the tools and the efficiencies ai that we're able to take kind of multiple bites at the apple we're looking at those most important documents first we're really able to lead with evidence-based. strategy and then can pick and choose our litigation strategy um as we move through kind of figuring out which tranches of documents make sense to look at, how we're going to want to proceed and so it's become a lot more efficient um it's no longer a badge of honor to say you know i had 500 people but you know that we're working on this, a giant case.

So it's more about how you're putting the pieces together, managing the workflow, getting that game plan in place, which I enjoy a lot more than kind of the brute force that it.

Yeah. So UnitedLex really wants to be a partner with the clients that we engage with. And so one of the things that I think is important in that regard is kind of shared values and the way that you work through problems, approach your litigation, figure out your strategy. We do more than just litigation. We do legal operations, intellectual property, incident response. We're looking kind of at contracts and outside counsel management. So there's a whole. host of things. And I think if you know that you're creating a partnership and building something together, then you're able to weather some of those storms. I mean, people want to say that there's never going to be mistakes or there's never going to be problems that happen, right? We all know that's not true.

It happens in everything that we do, right? And so how can we build that partnership on those shared values, really work toward this? Same end goals and build a lasting relationship that's going to be beneficial.

So we really talk about being that business partner for legal and what it shapes for me is that long-term strategy, right? Like I don't want the biggest pile of documents that we're going to host until the end of time, but not be able to preserve the relationship because we're not making the best decisions for everybody involved. And so for me, it's kind of, it's building that trust and that partnership, kind of creating a programmatic approach across the board, if you will, to say, hey, we're approaching this MDL the way we approach all the MDLs, right, that my corporation has. And therefore, we're going to treat privilege similarly or PII similarly, like we've got a playbook for what we want that to look like. But that playbook also provides the flexibility for our outside counsel to make some decisions that they need to make that are very specific to this litigation.

Because while some of those overarching strategies might be similar, we all know that each litigation, each attorney kind of has a different way that they're approaching. And that's what our corporation has. And so we want to ensure that everybody is able to make the right decisions that impact cost, risk. efficiency to meet all those, those tight deadlines and that we're talking about what's going on early on in my career. I remember thinking everybody knows, right? Like we're not going to hit this deadline. The data's not here. The deadline's tomorrow. You know, like they did it or they didn't want to admit it. Right. So sometimes you have to have those tough conversations. Um, this is a terrible nod, but like the shoot the elephant, right?

Like we have to shoot the elephant in the room. We have to say that like, this is really what we're able to do, or let's proactively plan and we can get this done and do this. Any issues that we're having, I want to be the one to bring that up, to talk about what the solution is as well. I never want to bring a problem to a client that I don't have some options for answers. And again, that goes back to, to those partnership pieces and ensuring that we're all on the same page and rowing in the same direction.

I think you show some wins early, right? Like if you can get some of those hot documents elevated at the beginning so people are seeing what we're able to find and how we're able to kind of put those into, you know, continuous active learning or some other workflows and really talking through, you know, some of those efficiencies. getting the buy-in because they're seeing the results. And so I think if we're able to do that and work together and hit some of those early deadlines, I mean, some of that's easy, right? It's just do what you say you're going to do to build that trust and to kind of move those things forward. And so a lot of the AI and the things we implement as well, we have a steering committee.

We test all of those things. We vet them. So it's providing some of the proof behind it too to say, hey, we're doing this workflow and you're not the first person that's ever engaged, in this. Here's the success that we've had, or here's a similarly situated client who can talk to you about this so that you feel confident in some of the choices that you're making. And if you're uncomfortable with something, we can switch and we've got some alternative workflow options too. So it's really just spending the time to talk through that and to, again, share. Showcase there was. as we're doing it. So that people see some of those things in real time.

I mean, I think some of it is we provide these big budgets, right? And a lot of times people are like, well, I wouldn't have spent that money on it anyway, right? So you lost 500 hours, but was your client actually going to pay you, law firm associate, to review first pass of all these documents? Probably not at this day and age. Right. And so it's a different way for you to say, hey, we can still have our associate team in here and we can feed you some of those documents. And so you're reviewing a little more than you maybe would have. Or, hey, we're going to put our team that really knows how to code this set because coding seed set for Cal is different than just coding a document that's in a normal review for those seed sets.

You really just have to look at the four corners of the document. You know, you're not using a lot of context because you're making sure that it's training the system appropriately. They're still QCing. They're still writing the review protocols. So they're doing a lot of the same tasks that they would have done otherwise. And I think it just flips your time into the secondary level review, I'll say. So you're able to spend more time on those important documents. Right. The ones that have redactions or have privileged content in them. Right. The ones that have redactions or have privileged content in them. The ones that are truly important to your case. If you're really not bought into it, let's use it as a workflow design, right?

We have global teams. So a lot of times we'll say, hey, let's test it out. And anything that we think might be non-responsive, we could even send over to, you know, our teams in India and they could look at those documents. You can see, and if you're getting the results you want, maybe next time we don't look at that. And so we've got some other ways to make people feel comfortable in those decisions as they're going through the process. And so a lot of times it's not necessarily what you're doing on this first case, but. how then can you show value and make different decisions and more impactful ones on the cases as you're moving forward. And then we've got clients who are willing to partner on more new tech and more new things that they're doing.

You know, they're coming to us saying, what are you testing in your steering committee right now? Like, what are we seeing? How can we use it? What's the difference between Relativity and Relativity One and Everlaw? You know, how? How do these things work? together? What are the different pieces that you can? UnitedLux is a little unique because we don't. have a software that we're selling, right? We work in a lot of different platforms. And so I think that gives us a different eye into sort of the options that you might have and being able to talk through some of those pieces.

Yeah, there's definitely point and shoot solutions in varying platforms, but I think it goes back at it's core to some of the playbook information that we were talking about, you know, understanding how you're making those coding decisions so that. You can see if it does make sense to re-use it, or maybe we're reusing first-level privilege calls, right, where those are a little bit more over-inclusive and then things that are potentially different in other areas. But ultimately, privilege, PII, you know, some of those things, we don't want them materially changing. There might be issue codes, right, that will change. And so whether those are needed for re-use is kind of a toss-up, depending on if its the same type of litigation, right, and some of that might be useful.

But I think its focusing on those things that truly should be more consistent. And then taking a look through the data, I mean, sometimes we can sample it and see, like, are these still holding up? Or you can look and see, okay, here's what the privilege differences were, and how do we want to move forward? And how do we want to move forward with these decisions as we go? We've played around as well with kind of looking at the MD-5s. of those and not necessarily hosting the data, but being able to say, okay, here's the coding that was on this document and these match up and we can take a look that way. So it's done very client specific. I don't know that there's the one perfect solution on data re-use yet.

I agree with you. It's something that I'm interested to see sort of where we continue to move, because I think that's going to be one of the most impactful things moving forward, if we can really solve. that. And again, I think its based on consistency and when its inconsistent, we're still in a little bit of a bind on some of those things, but that's the reality of litigation. So, hopefully we get to a better spot moving forward. But this is one conversation that I personally really enjoy having, because I think, like I said, there's not a great, you know, one size fits all piece, but there should be better pieces there. So yeah. And I think some of the AI that is. Coming out, you know, they'll allow me for the comparisons and some of those things will really help move the needle forward as well.

So I'm interested to see how that moves through. I'm excited to have some of the agential AI pieces that we're seeing tested in the market. So I'm really looking forward to where we go and what this looks like a year from now.

So I think the big thing is understanding what it is that you're trying to do and what your tool is being used for, right? So, like, we want stuff that's practical, scalable, secure that we are using. But as you indicated, different tools can be used for different things in different ways to varying levels of success, right? And I think part of it is understanding what it is, what your end goal is. I think a lot of people buy a tool because they think, okay, I have a mandate to use AI, right? This looks like a really cool AI tool, and I'm just going to buy it, and then we're going to figure out how to use it. So we spend a lot of time consulting with clients who are like, this tool is not doing exactly what I want it to do, right?

And so it's all still a people process tech. equation and we have to focus on the people in the process, like what are we trying to do? And then are we picking the right tech to get there? Because AI isn't a magic button solution for. everything. And also sometimes it's not even the right solution, right? And so like we could get there faster via workflow or something else. And so I think it's making sure that you vetted that technology, that it works well and you understand what the risks are. Like there's bias in everything. I remember having this conversation with one of the corporate counsels at NeLI. As a human, I'm biased. So if we're concerned that, you know, the machines are going to be.

biased, like we're dealing with that all the time, right? And so what is the bias that might exist and how can we counter for that or account for it and figure out the best thing to do moving forward? I didn't really give you a clear three-step plan, but those are. A few little nuggets that I think about as we're looking through, you know, what AI we're using and how to figure that out.

Yeah, 100%. I have a degree in both management and marketing. So for the go to market side, I do a lot of marketing one sheet, talking to the market about the solutions that we have, which does play into as well talking to general counsel or, you know, partner at a law firm, whoever it is about what the solutions are. And I think one of the things that drew me into eDiscovery is with my business mindset. I love the efficiency that really can come with it. Legal world is not usually known for like, its efficiency, and its cost savings and all of those pieces. But I think that the technology and the things that we bring to the table really do merit nicely, like we call ourselves a business partner for legal.

And so what we're really trying to do is work with our counterparts to say, what are you what are your goals as a business? Is it to cut costs? Is it to gain efficiency? Is it to bring things in house because you have, budget and can take this on and work on it, then that's a great solution for you. Or do you have budget constraints and you should look at outsourcing some of this or finding a partner, you know, to work on those pieces. So its really about having that conversation to understand those business goals and then how can legal really be a partner in that instead of just viewed as like a cost center where money is continually going out the door. Part of that is going to happen, you know, with litigation and other things.

But there's a lot of opportunity within, you know, general legal operations and other pieces to really find some efficiency gains, cost savings mechanisms, and get it to a better spot across the business as a whole. And I enjoy having those conversations and working through how we can help support those goals.

So at it's core, and I don't know that a lot of companies. They do spend time on it, but I think it's a hard thing, especially with people who are risk-averse, right? And you're just wanting to, like, keep everything. But what do your data retention policies look like first, right? Because I think some of that looks at then, do we need a lot of tech to go through it? Security is always important, right? That is a no-go, no-fly zone, right? Like, it has to be secure so that we're protecting that data. But then how much data is it? You know, are you on a legal hold that has existed since the beginning of time, and therefore we can't untangle anything, and you have so much data that we don't even know what to do with it?

And again, too, I think understanding your corporate landscape. Do you have people that have a lot of like BYOD and other things? Or are you all sitting within like a 365 environment that makes some of those decisions a little bit easier for whether you might want to invest in tech or whether you want to partner with somebody that has a lot of tech options? Because to your point, we can't keep buying something new all the time and keep up with where we're at. So I think it looks at where you're able to spend time and invest. And I think a lot of people, I see it going both ways. Like I had a number of conversations with people at NeLI who loved the fact that they had brought back a bunch of things in-house.

They had their own instance of relativity, of Everlaw, whatever it was. And they felt really good about the processes and the things that they had in place. I've had a lot of other conversations with corporations who are like, our IT department can't handle all the things that are going around here, and we need somebody else that. can help with this. Or we don't have the expertise, like we understand that we've partnered with this provider that can do the back-end support, but we don't have the expertise to like learn and do all of the tech. I feel very strongly that it's important for us to be able to do all of the things that are going around here. Everyone we work with is super smart, but you cannot be an expert in everything.

And so you want to be partnered up with people that are providing the expertise, not that you can't get it yourself, but you don't currently have or don't have the bandwidth to support. And I think those decisions look very different in each corporation. And that's one of the things that I love talking to clients about to kind of figure out where does it make sense for you to spend your money? What does your plan look like? And it's not going to be the same for everybody, but our goal is to support you kind of where you are at that point in time and grow and figure out a plan. Again, from that business perspective, I'm not going to say you're going to have everything fixed tomorrow, but let's work on a three to five year plan, right, to get you where you need to go.

And I think those are really impactful conversations to have.

To me, NeLI is really unique. It brings judges together. It brings law firm attorneys together. It brings corporate counsel together. It brings alternative legal service providers, software vendors, like everybody comes into that space and has discussions and ask questions. And there's really an education component. Moderating the judges panel this past time, like talking to the judges, they want to learn too, right? Some of this stuff is very new for them as they're. ruling and as they're working through. And what does this mean? What is this technology? How is it used? And I love that it's a learning opportunity for everybody. I love that nobody feels the exact same way, right? And you're sitting in the room and it's like, well, I'm going to say this.

And I know that this attorney over there is going to completely disagree with me. And that's okay, because these are the arguments. And this is the way that we're working through that. And I just think NeLI does such a good, job of continuing the conversation, engaging all sides in that. And we feel really blessed to be. a Platinum sponsor and to help continue that conversation and move the industry forward. So it's been a wonderful thing to be a part of on all sides.

Thanks for having me. This has been fun and great to talk to you both.